MOIRA RAYNER
Director,  London
Children's Rights Commissioner
Moira Rayner is a human rights expert who was the Victorian Commissioner for
Equal Opportunity between 1990 and 1994 and a part- time Commissioner of the
Commonwealth Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission between 1994 and
1997. Moira has a LL.B (Hons) University of WA, MA (Public Policy) Murdoch,
Barrister and Solicitor Western Australia and Victoria and enrolled Practitioner
of the High Court,
and is Adjunct Professor at Deakin University.
She chairs the Board of Directors of the National Children's and Youth Law
Centre, the Independent Council of the Complaints Resolution Scheme of the
Financial Planning Association and is a consultant on discrimination and
industrial justice matters with Dunhill Madden Butler. Her Book Rooting
Democracy: Growing the Society We Want, was published by Allen and Unwin in
April 1997.
Moira has also been extensively involved in television, radio and print media
since 1978 with regard to exposure on law reform and human rights issues.
Moira Rayner is highly respected for her scholarship in the area of human rights
law, equal opportunity and women's studies programs.
She is currently the Director of London Children's Rights Commissioner.
Interview with Moira Rayner
How
do you define leadership?
In
the words of Lao Tzu, When the best leader's work is done, the people say,
'we did it ourselves'.
A
leader encapsulates a group's sense of purpose and aspirations. She can inspire
others to work together because they genuinely wish to, and the skills that lead
a group to find shared objectives and achieve a desired result, sometimes
at the cost of their personal preferences. Leaders are intelligent, aware
of their own limitations and skills, possess vision, and the ability to
communicate that vision, and have a range of significant skills, including the
ability to select others with the skills they don't have but need, and in
particular the capacity to bring other people along with them, as a result of
free choice. A leader can personify the aspirations of the group, without
losing their individuality.
Do
you see yourself as a leader?
Only
when someone refers to me as a 'manager' when I say I'd say, 'leader'
instead. The children in the Advisory Board (who appointed me) and the
other staff make it really clear that ours is a team of equals, so 'leadership'
has to be of a very nice quality. I don't see myself as a follower.
What
were some of the influences that played a part in your choosing Law as a
profession?
My
father suggested it - he was determined that I would have a career so that I
could look after myself if I should happen not to marry or, like his mother, end up
with family responsibilities and no partner or means of supporting himself.
He thought I was suited to the discipline of the law. My careers mistress
thought it was 'unladylike', which was a challenge in itself. Besides, I could
do a law/arts first year and decide later. So I did, and I got the
Convocation Prize, topping first year law, completely unexpectedly (I thought I
had failed-ever the perfectionist). Then I got excited about the law, in year
2.
I
couldn't persuade any of the law firms in Western Australia that
I would make a really good articled clerk while I was still scouting around in
my undergraduate years ( a woman, you see! and an opinionated one at that) and,
finally, unexpectedly I was awarded only second class honours (which upset
me terribly) at the end of an otherwise apparently brilliant undergraduate LLB
course. So I then decided not to be an academic but to practise law, and I have
not regretted that.
I
also had very good articles with a woman solicitor as a result of which I could
turn my hand to just about anything, so didn't realise that it wasn't really
possible to set up your own legal practice and be self-employed. When I
left her, I went into a partnership of my own, and was my own boss during the
critical early years. That meant I missed out on the petty prejudices and
obstructions of employment in other people's law firms at that time and that I
didn't realise what I was missing out on. Since then I have worked in a
commercial law firm, but I was older and tougher and it didn't have the same
effect as it would have had when I was young, malleable and prone to sudden
bouts of self-doubt. I have learned to doubt myself all the time, which is at
least reassuringly consistent.
Do
you still find being a Lawyer challenging?
Yes
I certainly do: I love the law. I have spent my whole life fascinated with
justice in one way or another, and the rule of law as the fount of all
'civilised' conduct. I think it is tattooed into my hide, as the sentence was
tattooed onto the skin of the miscreants in the short story, The Penal Colony,
by ( I think) Huxley (let me check that!)
Which
particular aspects of your training as a Lawyer do you find yourself drawing
upon in your current pursuits and interests?
You get a very thorough
understanding of how the world works - how to prepare a case and argue it - the
reins of logic as well as the energy of passion - and the law trains you to
prepare, prepare, prepare and know your facts. As a person with powerful views,
my legal training has taught me to acknowledge but not be driven by my feelings.
Of course many influential men feel that women who express strong views are
'emotional' though what they really mean is more powerful than they are
comfortable with, but that's not a problem for me (any more).
What
attracted you to the position of Director of the Children’s Rights
Commissioner in the UK?
It's
a position firmly based on human rights laws and principles; you get to work
with children directly (that was a prime reason for coming over for the
interview - children were interviewing me. It was in London - which I adore, as
a great city - and it is one of those jobs where you sing when you go to work
because it is worth while, it's making a difference, you're working with
children, and everything you do is aimed at the same objective: making the world
a better one for children. It's not brilliantly paid. There are all kinds of
problems. I've been having a wonderful time.
Why
do you believe that Australia has not made a serious attempt to adhere to the UN
Convention on the rights of the child?
The UK has decided to become a 'human rights
oriented' jurisdiction because it is, and has been for thirty years, a part of
the European community which requires that states implement the European
Convention on Human Rights through domestic legislation and in their own courts.
In the interim, complaints of breaches of the ECHR could be made to a court, the
European Court of Human Rights. Now the Human Rights Act gives all UK residents
the right to have British courts determine whether acts or policies are
consistent with the ECHR. The UNCRC has now been brought into litigation where
the ECHR has to be interpreted, and they are taking into account other
international human rights jurisprudence (i.e. Article 6 of ECHR has to be
interpreted in light of Article 12 of the UNCRC where children are concerned.
Now think of Australia's situation: no economic
imperative to become a human rights culture; no court to take your complaints to
(other than HREOC, where you are complaining of discrimination, or one of the
State/Territory anti discrimination bodies). But the other thing is that in the
UK the charities and professional groups have been using UNCRC principles as the
language in which they demand change, and there have been plenty of reasons to
demand that change (child abuse scandals and royal commissions etc.) The
children's sector has become quite skilled over the last decade or so in
focusing political attention on rights/international human rights
norms/institutions to make government effective for children . . . Australian
groups have tended to bleat 'best interests' and squabble with one another over
jurisdiction. It's time that changed. This is getting serious and all the
lobbying in the world - and those groups that fall for the 'special access to
the minister' bait that disempowers so many of them - will not change
the lives of children for the better. We need power to make a difference.
Why,
in contrast to Australia, has the UK chosen to implement the Convention in
establishing the Office of the Children’s Rights Commissioner? Do
you attribute this to a greater social and human rights consciousness?
The UK hasn't established my office. This was
set up by children's charities and philanthropy to model what a statutory
commissioner would do, on the proper lines required by the Paris principles.
The UK government has set up a Welsh
commissioner for children, but has deliberately limited his powers and has
deliberately excised all references to UNCRC as well. Nonetheless there is a
commissioner, whose primary purpose is to protect the rights of children in
residential care but who is quite clearly not going to limit himself in this
way, who reports to the Welsh Assembly (which has few relevant powers) rather
than Westminister. Ireland and Northern Ireland are both committed to a
children's commissioner, the former is consulting on the appropriate structure
(it's already committed to UNCRC) and the latter thinking about maybe having one
in its Human Rights Commission (and that really does have power) - obviously NI
is more likely to take children's rights seriously when they are getting
murdered and conscripted into a civil war - and Scotland is 'thinking about it'.
But as I've said above, the reason that the nations of the United Kingdom are
even thinking about the rights of children is less to do with child protection,
than the politically necessary human rights culture that comes from a community
(Europe) which recognises that stability and economic prosperity are equally
linked with the rule of law and respect for the equal rights of all human beings
without discrimination.
The UK government is as wary of commissioners
for children and implementing UN conventions as Australia. But it has had to
implement the ECHR, and UNCRC has come along with it!
What
are some of the main strategies that you use to develop confidence and
leadership skills in the children who contribute or wish to contribute to
Children’s Rights in the UK?
The steps include (i)
appoint a children's advisory board first and give them the authority to
determine the structure policies and priority of the office - and train and
support them adequately, so they'll stay (ii) Adopt participation as the
non-negotiable principle, and respect for children's wisdom and experience as
the cornerstone of what you do, and the rest follows (iii) Give children
opportunities to speak for themselves - because what they say is inherently
worthwhile - and confidence gradually grows (iv) constantly consolidate and
reflect on what you are doing (v) send out peers to give the message to children
and young people about rights, respect and the proper role children have in
society (vi) always feed back what you did, when you consult children , so they
know that they were taken seriously. There is no substitute for a good
experience and challenges being met to build confidence and self-respect and an
internal locus of control - all key to resilience in children. Children need to
know their rights, before they will respect the rights of others.
What
processes are used to attract/recruit children who contribute to the work of
your Office?
We started out with a flyer, use the website,
word of mouth, reports such as the Sort it Out Report, and events such as the
Big Meeting on 30 May. Our Advisory board also talks to groups of children and
helps them work out what they want to do, as well as attending and addressing
conference etc.
What
are some of the key issues that have been raised by youth in relation to
children’s rights in the UK? How have they affected you personally?
I'd
go into more detail but I think that the Sort it Out Report on the website www.londonchildrenscommissioner.org.uk
is by far the best way of making my point.
What
are the long-term plans of your Office when the three year Project concludes in
March 2003?
We are working with the sector and government
to determine this. Ideally there will be a statutory commissioner well under way
by then and they won't need us, except as a ginger group (without which nothing
happens!)
What
led you to co-write the Women’s Power Handbook? From your experience in which
area do you feel women are more prone to feeling least empowered?
Why?
Joan
and I were both speaking at a seminar for Naomi Wolf which more than a thousand
young women came to and they were asking questions of us, not Naomi!! and very
practical ones - we decided that feminism was not dead but what was needed was
practical ideas about how to deal with common difficult situations.
Women
feel least empowered at school - which is an authoritarian structure anyway -
when they are young, and then, most often, in 'traditional' environments, where
they have a choice of fitting in or 'being difficult' and that's hard, because
everything in our training says 'don't'. And yet you must, if you want to
achieve. Joan and I started out with our book just talking, particularly about
meetings and how women often get silenced, talked over, patronised or ignored -
and what to do about that. It's dead common - when we talk to large groups about
this there is almost always a big sigh and a nodding of heads . Women on boards
or in professional groups where they are in a real minority often adopt
protective coloration rather than doing things their own way, and improving the
way things are done as well.
Do
you have any male or female role-models? If yes, why do you admire them?
These
are people I admire. I don't think I have any of their characteristics, really.
I wish I did.
St Theresa of Avila, who is (now safely dead) a
Doctor of the (Catholic) Church but whose treatment by the institution during
her lifetime was disgraceful. She had a remarkable capacity to achieve great
things by sheer willpower, a ruthless charm and the knowledge that she was doing
the Right Thing. I aspire to her example in some ways anyway! You don't have to
be religious to be inspired by powerful women, and she was.
Joan Kirner, who was the first politician I met
who is exactly what she seemed to be, and is true to her vision and values and a
good politician as well: I find that truly remarkable and almost unique (there
have been others !)
Elizabeth 1 of England, who sacrificed her
personal happiness to lead her country through an unparalleled period of
prosperity, ingenuity and creativity, and relative peace.
Martin Luther King, who knew how to make a
speech.
My grandfather, Duncan Norman McKenzie, a
Presbyterian minister of great gentleness and inner strength whom I simply
loved, but when he died and all his fellow ministers came to his funeral I heard
what a towering figure he had been in the General Assembly
As
a Feminist, what would be one issue that you are passionate about?
As
a human rights advocate I am passionate about respecting the rights of children
and the special role that feminists have historically played in promoting them.
I am bitterly disappointed in the narrow view that some women take that women's
rights and children's rights are somehow opposed to one another.
What
changes would you like to see in Australian Politics other than it becoming a
Republic? How would you advise those who are becoming increasingly disillusioned
with Australian politics and politicians in taking steps to reform Australia’s
political processes?
I would like to see Australia be sensitive to
the human rights principles that imbue modern international treaties, and
implement those principles in its own government. I believe that a Human Rights
Act that implemented the UN's International Covenant on Civil and Political
Rights and like the UK Act, gives the courts the duty to interpret our laws so
that they were consistent with fundamental human dignities and rights if
possible, would revive the rule of law and improve the quality of our
government. I went to the Constitutional Convention as a republican delegate to
argue for a vision of society that would be reflected in a new Constitution, and
some kind of a bill of rights, and a form of government that put people, not the
states vs.. the Commonwealth, at its core. I failed but I haven't given up.
What
economic, social, humanitarian and spiritual vision would you like to see
Australia working towards in the new millennium?
Too
hard a question.
What
advice would you offer women in relation to developing and maintaining their
personal power?
Read Joan's and my book! No, seriously, work
out your personal values and then decide what you'd like to do, know that you
can't do it on your own, and start. You can do anything you really want.
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